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 Post subject: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:37 am 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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Since posting my thoughts on www.energybackedmoney.com, I have had a number of people email me who have also been independently thinking about the concept. Through some email conversations it was decided to discuss the concept in more detail on a public forum so other people could benefit from what we discuss. We have the green light to discuss Energy Backed Money on this forum, and I plan to notify everyone who has contacted me about the concept and let them know about these discussions.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:48 am 
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:45 am

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Hi, I don't have time to speak a lot now, just let me thank you for your answer. It's been a long since I read your presentation, but I'm eager to discuss, see you soon here. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:45 am 
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:51 am

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I find this idea both interesting and fruit bearing at the same time. Unfortunately people are rather conservative and I expect 99.9% of population to have some sort of difficulty understanding KWh benchmark vs. current monetary system. In my opinion, in order to make this wagon rolling the following should implemented.

Solid administration, infrastructure of this board and a dedicated front page:

We need a sane, full time moderator which will keep ideas organized, coherent and updated on a dedicated website in a presentable form. The dedicated website should have a brief executive summary part with graphical section for presentations and detailed part with ideas granulized and outlined.
It should be obvious that keeping a perpetual board with threads from 10 million people like “yah, I love the idea, let’s do it!” won’t achieve much over any amount of time. Carrying away with perpetual web trolling on any silly threads is a waste time of all participants. Moderator should be monitoring this board regularly and be willing to justify and slice garbage away. That includes banning idiots that post for the sake of posting because they have itchy fingers.

Let’s outline further steps on how we can:

1) Present this idea in more coherent, expanded and granulized manner

2) Involve more people to understand and discuss the topic

3) Propagate this idea to masses (means of media coverage)

4) Create and collect petitions, talk to local congressmen

5) Enforce government to recognize the idea

6) Long shot - Establish board of competent professional that will work with government agencies and third parties to guide, oversee and help implementing Energy Backed Currency

==================

For part 1) Offhand I can come up with a few topics to discuss. The following needs to be discussed and explained in a greatly detailed manner:

Short Term & Long Term Political, Economical and Social risks and benefits of current monetary system vs. Energy Backed System

PS. This would be at least 100 pages of standard text.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:57 pm 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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Mr. Ka, thanks for your post.

Your thinking is quite a bit beyond where I have been at. I just built the energybackedmoney.com site to put my thoughts out there without really thinking about where it may lead. This topic on the politicalwatercooler.com discussion board was started because a few people who contacted me through energybackedmoney.com expressed interested in discussing the idea further. However, I am not opposed to getting this "wagon rolling" towards the bolder goals you outlined.

I am able to setup a dedicated discussion forum on energybackedmoney.com and integrate it with the rest of the energybackedmoney.com site. I would also be able to bring all the discussions we have here over to the forum on energybackedmoney.com. Once there, we can have our own group of moderators with strict moderation policies to keep the noise away. Perhaps a good plan would be to treat this nearly dormant politicalwatercooler.com discussion forum like it were our own energybackedmoney.com forum and if/when we get anywhere near 100 pages of text I'll plan to build the dedicated energy backed money discussion forum and move all our discussions over there.

To give you all an idea of the level of interest out there regarding energy backed money, below are the energy backed money related search terms people used to find energybackedmoney.com in all of 2011. In parentheses I included the number of visits for each search term, and I only included search terms that had three or more visits.

energy backed currency (102)
energy backed money (65)
energy-backed currency (48)
money backed by energy (17)
energy as currency (14)
currency backed by energy (12)
solar energy as a currency (7)
electricity backed currency (7)
electricity as currency (6)
energy money (5)
energy standard money (5)
energy standard instead of gold standard (5)
currency backed by electricity (5)
energy backed currencies (4)
electricity to back currency (4)
a currency backed on resources (4)
the gold standard energy backed money (4)
kilowatt hour standard currency (3)
energy standard for money (3)
energy currency (3)
electricity-backed currency (3)
energy backed monetary system (3)

We are definitely not the only people on the planet thinking about this concept. If only a fraction of these people join in on our discussions, we could get the wagon rolling and build some momentum.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:56 am 
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:51 am

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Well, the good news of course is that there are a few people that are interested in this idea after all. I'll start drafting foundation of this thesis but it will probably take me a few good weeks to complete (considering my current workload). I'll keep you updated once it is shaped up and I’ll need a feedback and proofreading. It would be good to see (and participate in) some discussions, ideas and constructive criticism beforehand on this subject but since this is still in the infant stage I bet I won’t be so lucky.

How about guerrilla media warfare? For starters I can help create a Facebook page with a brief description of Energy Backed Money project with links to main project page so people who are interested can like it and easily link to it. In these days a lot of folks have 24/7 mobile access to Facebook and surely can build up some interest, traffic and feedbacks. Additionally it might be wise to open MySpace / Twitter / Wikipedia links to main page but Facebook in my opinion beats them all.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:02 pm 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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One person who contacted me through energybackedmoney.com brought the following link to my attention.

Deko: An Energy Backed Currency Proposal
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? ... id=1802166


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:28 am 
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:45 am

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Although I found your explanation extremely pedagogic, I dissent in a number of things, specially your proposal of implementation.

I would instead see it as an incredible oportunity for descentralised banking, in the way that energy producers would be the ones that issued the money, without government intervention.

What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:06 am 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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polmas wrote:
Although I found your explanation extremely pedagogic, I dissent in a number of things, specially your proposal of implementation.

I would instead see it as an incredible oportunity for descentralised banking, in the way that energy producers would be the ones that issued the money, without government intervention.

What do you think?


Hi polmas,

I agree entirely that the energy backed money concept would be excellent for decentralized currencies. For example, a power company could issue certificates that could be redeemed for kilowatt-hours and those certificates could be used as money. Other power companies could issue their own competing currencies.

Issuing certificates that could be redeemed for kilowatt-hours could also be a great way for power companies to raise funds to increase their ability to generate electricity. For example, they could issue certificates and use the revenue fund the construction of a wind farm, solar array, coal plant, or even a nuclear power station.

Anyway, in my suggested implementation in chapter 6, http://www.energybackedmoney.com/chapter6.html, I was focusing on something that would be better than our current centralized fiat monetary system and that would also be better than our original centralized gold backed monetary system. However, I agree that the energy backed money concept doesn't have to be centralized.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 10:36 am 
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:45 am

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Altough to achieve this the energy sector should be totally liberalised, freed from every governtment intervention, from production to distribution, and right now this is everything but possible :|


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:05 pm 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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polmas wrote:
Altough to achieve this the energy sector should be totally liberalised, freed from every governtment intervention, from production to distribution, and right now this is everything but possible :|

The concept of backing money with energy is independent of whether or not government is involved in the energy industry. Maybe energy backed money would be more desirable if the government stopped intervening with the energy production and distribution, but getting government out of the energy sector isn't a perquisite to energy backed money.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:36 am 
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:15 am

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Hi everybody!
Very interesting topic.
Here's a link that might be of your interest:

http://teslaconference.com/

This is a link to the website of a scientific conference that aims to gather different ideas on energy money.

2 energybackedmoney
Could you please share this link with other people that might be interested.
I would also appreciate much if we could contact to get acquainted and possibly
establish some kind of collaboration since this topic is of my professional interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:06 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Hi , I just got on here and am real glad to see how many others are interested. Money is just an I.O.U. When the I. O. U. is paid, it should be torn up/ thrown away. So with electricity the watts or volts(money) gets created, and then when they go thru the light bulb or toaster oven or whatever is using them , maybe an electric car, whatever, the electricity is used up, just like tearing up the IOU note. There are a lot of local currencies out there that are in use, one of the most famous and long running is "Ithaca Hours" http://www.paulglover.org/hours.html Paul Glover is the name of the guy who started the Ithaca hours project, the idea is that the local currency of the town of Ithaca, New York, is backed up by hours of work, so that when someone pledges to work one hour, they print an "Ithaca Hour" and then it can be spent at a local store or anywhere that accepts them as money... it really helps the local economy because the money doesn't go out to big corporations which take the money away from the local area and spend it maybe on the French Riviera or in London or Washington or somewhere, but the money is recirculated in the local Ithaca area, so more money gets built up in the local area... money needs to be backed up by something like labor or electricity or gold or whatever, but Federal Reserve Notes are only backed up by government debt, so they are basicly worthless except that people still accept them, but inflation is hitting them so they are worth less and less every day, just look at the price of gas and groceries. My Uncle was an economist, and he claims money doesn't need to be backed by anything, but he also quit that line of work because he admits that economists are totally worthless and do not do anything useful... but he still claims that money doesn't need to be backed by anything of value, while when I ask him why investors will invest in something like government bonds if it is not backed by anything that can buy something , he doesn't have anything to say except the old and tired " Gold is a barbaric relic"... well maybe it is but at least it is worth something and will always be worth something... BUT! I think there are a number of reasons it is unlikely we will get back on the gold standard, one of which is gold mining is very bad for the environment... and most ways of making electricity are too... but say if we did something like -get some electric generators hooked up to exercise machines, then the unit of money would be tied to how much one unskilled worker can generate in a day , or an hour,...and computer games (exer-gaming) can be played so people can have fun doing it, and teams can compete to see who can generate the most electricity, and who has the most efficient generator designs, and the power company can make sure the power is actually generated so it cannot be counterfeited, and all of this already has the technology in place, we just need to put it together...people can pledge money to their favorite people and teams of people who generate power, and this will be good for the environment and good for unemployed people and even people with job skills can exercise while at their computer jobs... I have LOADS of ideas connected with this but just want to get some out for starters here, we need to save the economy and this will help, money does need to be backed up by something and it should be energy, that is what it represents anyway...


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:28 am 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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Hi stonekutteral,

You should mention to your uncle that dollars are backed by something … taxes and legal tender laws. Without these "forces" backing dollars, I'm sure people would find something other than dollars to use as money.

I found the following site about generating energy electricity from exercise machines.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewabl ... ators.aspx
Apparently, "a reasonably fit person can produce about 100 watts of continuous output". I did the math on this and if someone produced 100 Watts for 2 hours a day, every day, they would generate 0.2 kWh a day, 1.4 kWh per week, 6 kWh per month, and 73 kWh per year. If you assume $0.12 per kWh, then this would amount to generating $0.02 a day, $0.17 a week, $0.72 a month, and $8.76 a year. I think it would be a real accomplishment for a person to manually generate even 1% of their electricity consumption.

I don't think human powered electricity generation can make a dent in our electricity needs, and it would be far more efficient for us to spend our human labor on creating things that produce energy for us like solar panels and windmills (or to dig up coal and burn it). For example, making minimum wage installing solar panels is far better than making $0.01 or $0.02 or even $0.03 per hour generating electricity with human power.

However, trying to generate one's own electricity would be a great way to raise awareness of how much electricity we actually consume (and waste). If someone did have to generate 1% of their own electricity, they would definitely be extremely vigilant with things like turning off lights you they aren't using and adjusting the thermostat. People would also demand more energy efficient products. Someone should start the 1% club where to be a member you need to personally generate at least 1% of the electricity you consume.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:44 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Hi, I think that we need to think about the fact that energy costs are highly subsidized and so when you compare the price of a kilowatt of energy now as being 12 cents or say that coal is OK we need to recognize wat the real costs are. Nuclear power is a dead end, most nuclear plants around the world are being shut down since the Fukushima disaster in Japan has made it clear that there is no such thing as safe nuclear energy, and we also must realize that there is no such thing as clean coal energy. Some things that are wrong with coal is that it destroys the envirornment we live in, and such things as mountaintop removal are needed to get the coal out of the ground, but mountaintop removal is not a sustainable practice and has already destroyed hwta used to be some of the most beautiful places n earth such as the Appilachian mountains, as well as being a major cause of cancer both in the local areas where it is done as well as the spread of air pollution which is so bad in some places that people cannot live near the coal fired power plants without getting cancer quickly, and even thse of us living far away from those areas are being negativly affected by breathing the air that is contaminated by coal pollution , as well as eating food that is poisened by the pollution. As the economic problems that are created by the fiat currency system are spreading and will only continue to get worse, it gets harder and harder to guard the transmission lines for electricity, as is shown by the major problems that are happening in England, where the electrical lines to keep the trains running, are being stolen for the copper and metal content in them, as they are worth so much to thieves that they will risk performing illegal acts to get the scrap metal to steal. This kind of thing has gone on for years in third world countries, but now that Britain and the USA are themselves being downgraded to third world status by the financial crisis brought on by the fiat money system, it will only get worse. The solution is to localize production, and by making our electrical appliances more efficinet, we can use less electricity, while by making our generators more efficient, we can produce more electricity. Then we can set a real world price on the electricity and use that for a base price for the energy backed currency, where th ebase price reflects the amount of work done by an UNSKILLED worker in one day or one hour or whatever unit of time is used. Of course skilled workers will still be paid more than unskilled workers, but at least this way unskilled workers will have something to work at, and there are lots of ways to put together teams of people to work together to make the gneration of electricity more efficient. It does not all need to come from human power, but human pwoer can give us a baseline to measure by, as oppsed to nonsustainable ways of power generation like coal, oil or nuclear power.
In the 1930’s Buckminster Fuller calculated that one person could only turn out about a third of what we calculate today as someone being able to generate, and the improvement is due to more efficient generators. As more people turn their attention to the problem, more efficient generators will be invented and used, and teams of people working together will compete to see who can generate the most power, and the most efficent inventions will be used by more people, who will then improve on even those greater efficiencys. I have many ideas to improve the amount of power that can be produced, and there are many other people who can come up with better ideas than I have , so this is not something that needs to be calculated by just todays numbers, but it’s something that can be improved on. Some links about mountaintop coal removal can be found if you Google it, and for those who are still in denial about global warming just contact an insurance company that insures ski resorts . See if they are also in denial about the need for more artificial snow creation, and see also how the sea is open in the northen regions where ships have been seeking a northwest passage for the last few hundred years. There was never a northwest passage before because of too much ice to sail near the north pole, but now ships can travel near the north pole because the ice is gone. The Marshall Islands and other south Pacific Islands are being threatend by rising sea levels as well, due to the melting of glaciers, and although I believe that the warming is actually caused more from de-forestation and clear-cutting trees, there is still plenty of problems with coal , nuclear and oil to the point where we cannot rely on them, even if it is only the rising costs in dollars of using them.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain ... =firefox-a


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:43 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Here is something on China cutting down on coal and upping their Solar capacity,... maybe human power isn't the way to do it and maybe it could help some, but I think coal and nuclear are not going to be where the answers are found...
Industry Trends & Events . . .

Sunny Outlook for Solar?
2011 was a rough year for the solar market. So why are predictions looking good for 2012? In a word, China. The country is expected to install at least 4 GW of solar panels this year, which would double the capacity installed in 2011, and would be about 4x the capacity of a typical nuclear reactor. China's government is pushing for clean energy — aiming for 15 GW of solar capacity by 2015 — as a way to decrease dependence on coal, and to keep pace with rapidly increasing power consumption. As a result, says Bloomberg, renewable energy is growing faster in China than anywhere else in the industrial world.

also from globalspec.....Don't Blame Wind Power
Power bills are going up, and some customers are blaming what they see as added costs from renewable energy like wind farms. Are they right? According to the experts, no. In this video from BBC News, analysts say the move to green energy is not behind higher bills for consumers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQXqXzMxJrE

If you find this subject interesting, subscribe to the GlobalSpec e-Newsletter, DirectU2 The world of Solar Energy Systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:59 am 
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:46 pm

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Hi stonekutteral,

A lot of the topics you brought up are interesting to discuss, but the concept of energy backed money is independent of how the energy is generated. For example, if a dollar were backed by 5 kilowatt-hours of electricity then all it means is that you can get at least 5 kilowatt-hours of electricity for a dollar and it says nothing about how the 5 kilowatt-hours were generated. Energy backed money can solve the problem of dollar continuing to be worth less and less, but energy backed money does not attempt to address issues like global warming, nuclear energy safety, coal's impact on the environment, etc.

I have another thought about human power. If you view a human as something that can perform physical work to generate electricity then you should look at the overall efficiency of the system. If you look just at the fuel that goes into the human you will find it is very expensive (i.e. hamburgers, orange juice, cookies, etc.) and it probably takes more energy to produce, deliver and prepare human fuel than what a human can generate in return. However, if you view humans as being able to work to create machines that generate electricity you can see we are very efficient where you can feed us a hamburger, orange juice, and a cookie and we can work to design and build a 15 GW solar farm. Anyway, when talking about human power, I think it is important to include our creative abilities to harness the energy that is all around us.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:01 pm 
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:31 pm

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First off thank you for creating the site and this forum, I've heard about this concept for a few years and am now trying to articulate a way of promoting it and/or researching possibilities for new economic/currency systems.

However, I do have differing views on the functions that money serves, as well as, whether market systems are indeed sustainable or desirable for human prosperity. Most automatically assume that if we aren't using market systems to orient production of goods, then some government will be dictating or planning the economic development. I believe people have had their line of thinking constricted into a false dichotomy of 'its either a free market or its a tyrannical government'. There are alternatives to orient labor and production, that don't resort to competitive market systems or centralized planning.

My view is that market systems and attempts to regulate them maintain scarcity, as well as, facilitate the elite dominance associated with nearly every society using money. I also view our belief in democratic decision making as ridiculous, as trusting the majority to know best fails to acknowledge how often the beliefs we hold true are backwards (geocentric universe, flat earth, etc). The most important issue to understand, however, is the ways in which access to goods are created. You hear economists and politicians alike using the word "growth" all the time. Growth is basically increased money supply, which theoretically equates to more available jobs. We depend on jobs to access money to access goods, and if money flow were to dwindle, job availability dwindles as well. This may seem normal but if you analyze societal development from a long term view, something very different is happening today when it comes to jobs.

We're needing less and less people to produce more goods than ever before. This is known as technological unemployment, and although we're unlikely to remove every job available, a monetary-market economy cannot function very well if only 40% of the population is needed to work. So we're at a point in which we need to find a way of providing access to goods, while allowing people to gain wealth through their labor contributions. Using governments to tax the workers and redistribute wealth will never work. We need a system that doesn't resort to taxation as a way to create access, yet still rewards people for their labor inputs. Money in a non-market economy would merely serve to divide goods that are rival in consumption. There is much more to be said, and I think I'll solidify the concepts some more to reduce my bouncing around. thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:21 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Excellent comments , thanks for posting...!! I agree with you, and think that there are a lot of other issues than just those we are fed (up with!).... please post again..!!


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:18 pm 
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:31 pm

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I should have started by saying the money backed currency your article describes is the first goal we should focus on. We should promote this new currency system, as it's effects in the short term would help deal with the problems I was describing in my first post.

Even small changes freak people out, so the major changes I'm hoping for are decades away. This energy accounting currency could be installed within the next 5 years if the current debt systems collapse. If more people know about energy dollars and lose faith in fiat, good things will happen.

also if you haven't heard of technocracy, or resource based economic models, they are worth while concepts to read up, and while their overall proposals lack necessary ingredients, I still find much of their arguments valid and blend what I agree with and what I dont. I think some jobs will still require monetary gain, however, I think the ways money is created/used will need to change in order to achieve a sustainable, steady state, high access economy, and energy accounting is the only logical fit as a monetary note.

I could go on forever, but for now, what strategies are there for promoting this? There are meetings ever so often in my town, political discussions that do a lot of criticizing fiat, but almost always resort to gold standards. Maybe we could try hammering specifics of energy backed money?

Thanks again
jefe


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:27 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Local currencies like Ithaca Hours could add solar energy and other kinds too...


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:41 pm 
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:31 pm

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Hey everyone, I've been reading up on energy currency and to my surprise there is a ton of information on the topic.

http://constitution.org/enercur.htm - About eleven separate links to discussions on energy currency. I feel like the more I learn about this idea, the more I want to see it happen. The 9th link, perfectcurrency.com has great proposals for implementation.

http://teslaconference.com/ - Im hoping a video or summary of the presentation will be uploaded soon, but this conference recently met to discuss energy currency and implementation.

Im thinking about hosting a town meeting to discuss a local currency based on energy, as a meager test run perhaps? After reading Bernard Lietear's The Future of Money and his proposals for complementary local currencies, it seems local attempts at finding an accurate energy currency could work. Overall international and national coordination should take place to create a universal standard of measurement for energy currency.

Hope the links aren't old news.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:00 am 
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:44 am

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Hi.

So I had a quick question that I feel is incorrect as I must be missing something pertaining to current economics, but can I throw a quick hypothetical out there?

Say we do like it says on perfectcurrency.org and set up boards to monitor nations energy backed money set up.

Then we use the example on energybackedmoney and set $1 as 5Kwh, and the free market price of elec is around $0.12 per Kwh.

When that starts to fall due to an increase in supply (more renewable energy sources being built) the current way a government increases money supply is usually through loans (buying bank assets who in turn give out more loans at better rates). But this comes with accrued interest. Bad. So as your example instead it reduces tax to bring free market prices back up.

Say if free market prices then continued to fall, so the government then instead used that money to buy up the nations debt at a good rate (I saw an article that OWS bought $14,000 of public debt for $500) so say they spent several Billion $$ and just wiped it away. That would leave people with even more money in their pocket.

So now supply goes up further as people and companies install their own turbines and solar panels, dropping free market prices again. So the government increases money supply by funding job share schemes where people now work less by sharing their job, whilst the unemployed get work, all without dropping wages. If this isnt enough the gov begins a drive to turn every machine, vehicle, boiler and more to run on electricity. This would increase demand more but move us away from fossil fuels and be much greener.

So to the question. If free market prices STILL continued to fall, technology for energy storage grew and producing it was becoming easier, the government did all the above and now continuously reduced taxes until zero, then after it could reduce no more the free market cost of energy continued to fall, would we get to a point where there was hardly no debt (since money had been changed from debt based to energy backed), we paid almost no taxes, and since electricity was almost free around the board, the cost of living was almost zero too?


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:37 pm 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Hi Jimmy, yes I believe you are correct, the price of many things will go way down and the standard of living for everyone will rise. Also there will be more reason to develop clean energy , as you point out, and so pollution -and other negative effects of locally controlled fossil fuels- will be minimized.


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:55 am 
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:44 am

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Cheers stonekutteral

It just seems a bit too obvious and easy though? Like I'm missing a huge link somewhere on why this wouldn't happen?

I don't want to go all 'Global Elite' or anything, although I do understand the loss of power that many of the top banks and corporations would lose could certainly be seen as a motive for them blocking this change.

But although I am fairly new to my economics, I have studied it quite a bit so far in some detail, yet still feel there must be something missing from the equation for the change/implementation and this natural progression of the currency and society as I hypothesized above to take place?

That's what I want to know, what mathematically is there stopping a change to an energy backed monetary system, and then what mathematically after that is there stopping the natural deflation of the free market value that would in turn result in lower cost of living due to falling prices and higher increases in the money supply?


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 Post subject: Re: Energy Backed Money Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:10 am 
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:17 pm

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Henry Ford proposed an energy backed money system around 1912 or 1913 and got viciously attacked in the New York Times for daring to suggest such a thing just when the Federal Reserve Bank was being installed. For a good idea of the behind the scenes action which goes along with the power of coinage, read the book " The Creature from Jekyll Island"... other good ones are "The Power of Coinage" and also "The Gamester"- this one was written by Rafael Sabatini, who wrote "Scaramouche", "Captain Blood", and other swashbuckling novels which were made into movies... they all give different views of the extreme measures which attend the making of money and central banking.

There are no valid mathematical reasons why we cannot do such a thing as to create and use energy backed money, but there are plenty of people who will try to double talk you into believing it cannot work. Luckily we do not have to rely on the government to create all money, as local currencies, coupons and tokens can all be used in trade as well as government paper money.


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